Images in Multiple Galleries?

[Walkinman]

Hey Folks,

I know this was mentioned a while back here, but I was wondering if there's any hope for a future version where files might be able to appear in multiple galleries? For example, I have a number of images I might want to have show up in various galleries, such as "aurora borealis", "landscapes", "Wrangell - St. Elias", "Alaska", etc. Obviously those can be done via keywords, but it'd be really nice to have a little more control. Something like Wordpress' categories or similar would be great. It'd help a lot with SEO for a site, and functionality as well. Just inquiring if this is possible and.or a likely addition sometime?

Thanks so much,

Cheers

Carl

[Αndré]

When you say "galleries" I assume you mean "albums". I don't know what exactly you're asking for. You're right, you can use the album keyword feature to link pictures between different albums (= let them appear in more than one album). I don't know how Wordpress works, so please explain in detail which feature you'd like to see in future versions of Coppermine.

[Walkinman]

hey André

Thanks for your reply.

Yes, I mean "albums". Obviously I upload an image to a folder on my server, and then add it to a cpg album. It'd be great if possible to add it to more than album, many images, esp for a stock photo site, might need to be in various albums. The keyword option is a half-workaround, but doesn't really lend itself to all the SEO requirements for a website, in my opinion.

Being able to manually add photos to multiple galleries would be a great feature; for example, I have images of bears and caribou that I'd like to have in a gallery for Alaska, for Wrangell - St. Elias National Park (where the photos were taken), for the respective species, for mammals, etc. But, if I can only add one keyword option to each album (which isn't really enough anyway, for me), and I might not necessarily want every single photo taken in and keyworded with "Wrangell - St. Elias" to appear in that album - but the possibility to selectively add certain ones would be very helpful.

I've tried uploading images to more than one album, which works OK, but then those files show up multiple times in search results, which looks a bit weird.

Wordpress, for example, allows me to add a post to categories, each time I add a new post; so that post might appear in a 'wildlife' category, an 'Alaska' category, and so on.

Does that make more sense?

Thanks

Cheers

Carl

[Αndré]

Wordpress, for example, allows me to add a post to categories, each time I add a new post; so that post might appear in a 'wildlife' category, an 'Alaska' category, and so on.

So the Wordpress categories would be albums in Coppermine and the Wordpress posts would be files/pictures in Coppermine. Imo we don't need a new feature, as you can accomplish it with the already existing (album keyword) feature. Maybe the workflow differs from the one Wordpress uses, I don't know. Just assign a generic keyword to each album (e.g. the album's ID) and add that keyword to all files that shall appear in that album.

[Walkinman]

Hey André,

No, sorry, that's not what I meant. I was using Wordpress as an example of similar software that allows you to add posts to more than one category (or album, in the case of cpg). I just want to be able to easily and effectively add files to more than one album.

The keyword workaround is sort of the opposite of using a database driven program to run things .. it means manually adding specific keywords to all images intended to be in multiple galleries, and it would be coppermine specific keywording. The IPTC data I embed in each file wouldn't really be sufficient, I'd have to add a given keyword specifically for the website, to each photo. Why not simply allow images to be added to more than one album?

Here's an example; what if I want to add a gallery that showcases Alaska landscape photos. Not all my landscape photos are from Alaska, and not all my Alaska photos are landscapes; so I'd have to make up some keyword, let's call it "Alaska-landscapes' and then add that to every image I want to include.

This is compounded by the fact that I can't simply reload iptc data to images already uploaded, as per this thread.
http://forum.coppermine-gallery.net/index.php/topic,68454.msg355805.html#msg355805 - right now I'd have to delete every file I want to include in multiple albums, redo the files IPTC data and include cpg coded keywords, then re-upload and re-add them to the website.

Here's another example. I have many photos of Mt. St. Elias, in Wrangell - St. Elias National Park, Alaska. Those images, or some of them, could be added to a generic "Alaska Photos" album, a "Wrangell - St. Elias National Park" album, a 'Mt. St. Elias" album, an "Alaska Mountains" album, and an "Alaska landscape" album .. just for starters. Using keywords doesn't work so well; A search for "Alaska"on my site returns 3000 photos. Searching for "Mt. St. Elias" returns any named mountain in Wrangell St. Elias Park .. nearly 400 images. and so on. If I could manually just "add to album", I could better control how this might work. I could build an album for any of the above lists, and then add which files I want to go in there, keeping the album to a reasonable number, and improving SEO options along the way.

Lastly, I can only use one keyword per album to collect images; what if I want to make an album for "Alaska Brown Bears"? I have over 600 bear images on the site. But not all are brown bears, and not are photos were taken in Alaska. if I could just have an option to "add to album", I could easily add a selection of relevant images to an album like that; this way I could control the albums, and then the keyword option be used by site visitors to search for a wider selection, etc.

Using keywords would half work, for smaller websites; but websites with thousands of photos that have multiple album possibilities get too complicated to effectively do this.

Is there a reason why images should be not be allowed to be added to multiple albums?

Thanks so much,

Cheers

Carl

[Joe Carver]

I've tried uploading images to more than one album, which works OK, but then those files show up multiple times in search results, which looks a bit weird.

Could removing duplicates (by file name) from the search results be a workaround?

[from the sidelines with a shallow understanding of the work and time required for the task...]

[Walkinman]

hey Joe

Thanks for your response. I'm not totally sure what you mean .. is it possible to set it up so cpg doesn't show duplicates (same file name) in search results? I actually asked a question about that topic a number of years ago and was told by one of the mods here that was a "silly idea" and not possible.

If so, it would definitely help to do that; it'd mean a circuitous workaround, having to reupload any files I wish to add to other albums, so it's not ideal, for me anyway.

To me, it just seems like the easiest thing would be to have cpg set so files can be added to multiple albums; but I have no idea about the programming involved in making that happen.

Thanks,

Cheers

Carl

[Αndré]

I can only use one keyword per album to collect images

That's the actual feature request imo.

Using keywords would half work, for smaller websites; but websites with thousands of photos that have multiple album possibilities get too complicated to effectively do this.

The keywords does exactly what you want. You probably need just a more user friendly GUI to (batch) assign the keywords to your existing images.

Is there a reason why images should be not be allowed to be added to multiple albums?

Each picture has to be assigned to exactly one album in Coppermine by design. It might be possible to add it to more than one album (without using the keyword feature), by modifying the database structure and adjust all references to that part in the core code. But I don't see any reason why we should change Coppermine in such a significant way, if we could achieve exactly the same with the already existing and working album keyword feature (which could be extended as said above).

is it possible to set it up so cpg doesn't show duplicates (same file name) in search results? I actually asked a question about that topic a number of years ago and was told by one of the mods here that was a "silly idea" and not possible.

Of course it is possible, but you should drop the idea of uploading dupes to your gallery because it has a lot of drawbacks like:
1. You waste disk space and CPU cycles on your server
2. You have to enter/update the meta data (title, description, keywords, ...) for both files
3. The views, rating and comments differs for both files
4. You have to modify the core code to achieve your actual goal

[Walkinman]

Hey André

I appreciate your consideration. I don't want to drag this out too much and waste your time, but I'll add a few more points.

The keywords does exactly what you want. You probably need just a more user friendly GUI to (batch) assign the keywords to your existing images.

Except it doesn't give as much control over what gets added and how. For example, it would be nice to have the option of an album set up for, say, Mt. Blackburn photos, where I add a collection like maybe 50 images to that album ... so I can optimize that album for SEO purposes to rank high for Mt. Blackburn .. but it need not have each and every image from my website that has "mount blackburn" as keywords. Visitors could use the search function to browse the complete collection. Same thing with with other albums .. landscape features, such as 'glaciers' for example. I wouldn't want an album to include each and every image I have with the word glacier" in its IPTC data .... that would serve neither me nor the visitor much use. There are currently 500 images on my site with that keyword:

http://www.skolaiimages.com/stock/thumbnails.php?album=search&title=on&keywords=on&type=and&search=glacier

But an album with 50-70 images selectively added to it would be a great boon to my website.

And yes, a better interface to batch add keywords to images would be great .. and also a workaround to the character limit, mentioned below.

Each picture has to be assigned to exactly one album in Coppermine by design. It might be possible to add it to more than one album (without using the keyword feature), by modifying the database structure and adjust all references to that part in the core code. But I don't see any reason why we should change Coppermine in such a significant way, if we could achieve exactly the same with the already existing and working album keyword feature (which could be extended as said above).

Because then the albums are little more than meta albums anyway, are they not? They offer some improvement, but not an awful lot, over just using the search function.

Of course it is possible, but you should drop the idea of uploading dupes to your gallery because it has a lot of drawbacks like:

"1. You waste disk space and CPU cycles on your server" -- agreed.

"2. You have to enter/update the meta data (title, description, keywords, ...) for both files" .. not really. I have all that in the file on my computer. entered once, and cpg reads the iptc on upload.

"3. The views, rating and comments differs for both files" .. I've disabled all those features, so it wouldn't affect my use of cpg at all. But I understand other folks have it set up differently.

"4. You have to modify the core code to achieve your actual goal" .. I agree, adding dupes isn't a good way to go, which is why I'd request the option of being able to add a single file to multiple galleries.

What you're saying might well be correct, and maybe I've not set up my initial album structure as efficiently as I should have; I don't know if thats the issue or not. But it also comes down to keywording practices, and that's something I do, as a stock photographer, reasonably well. It also comes down to the search function on cpg, and as yet, I have not been able to make it call exact phrases, which I'd really need for effective album management like you suggest. For example, how do I set up an album for "Mt. St. Elias" photos? or 'brown bears' ... people search on google for grizzly bears, and also for brown bears .. it's hard to optimize a page for both phrases, so an album of each would be optimal; yet most of the images in either album would be keyworded the same.

Another issue is the character restrictions on cpg keyword structure. I have it set so I can upload a file with all iptc data embedded, and cpg reads all those keywords .. but when I try to add or edit keywords via cpg, I can't because it's effectively 'full'. So I'd need to open the file on my computer, use a file management program like Photo mechanic to ad keywords, delete the original file from my cpg gallery, and reupload and then add the newly edited one; and do this for hundreds of images.

I'm certainly open to suggestions or instruction on how better to utilize cpg; but the only way I can see to achieve what I want, under the current structure, is to make up an arbitrary keyword like, say 'eliasx' and add that to each image I want to add to a Mt. St. Elias album .. then add a new album, put 'eliasx' as the keyword and have those images appear in it. If I could do this without having to delete files currently online, it would be workable, though time consuming.  But I need some workaround the keyword character limit in cpg to do that. (I realize this forum isn't the place for support, so if you'd like to contact me via pm or me make a new post, let me know).

Oh .. and if the album keyword feature was extended to include more than one keyword, it still wouldn't work for exact phrase matches.

Thanks again.

cheers

Carl

[Αndré]

Another issue is the character restrictions on cpg keyword structure. I have it set so I can upload a file with all iptc data embedded, and cpg reads all those keywords .. but when I try to add or edit keywords via cpg, I can't because it's effectively 'full'. So I'd need to open the file on my computer, use a file management program like Photo mechanic to ad keywords, delete the original file from my cpg gallery, and reupload and then add the newly edited one; and do this for hundreds of images.

If I remember correctly we recently had a thread in the support board where a user asked how to extend the keyword box (maybe it was the title or the description box, can't remember). Unfortunately I haven't found that thread on the quick. But it's quite easy to extend the character limit, so it won't hurt to start a new thread if you also don't find that thread.

how do I set up an album for "Mt. St. Elias" photos? or 'brown bears' ... people search on google for grizzly bears, and also for brown bears .. it's hard to optimize a page for both phrases, so an album of each would be optimal; yet most of the images in either album would be keyworded the same.

I solve that issue the following way when creating keyword albums. I don't use the album keyword "brown bear", but the actual album ID and assign that ID (= the album keyword) to the files I want to show in that album. Using plain numbers have the advantage, that you can easily hide them from the clickable keyword list. Basically as described here:

the only way I can see to achieve what I want, under the current structure, is to make up an arbitrary keyword like, say 'eliasx' and add that to each image I want to add to a Mt. St. Elias album .. then add a new album, put 'eliasx' as the keyword and have those images appear in it.

As you can see I'm not interested in implementing such a feature, as a lot of work (on code side and database side) is needed to add that possibility and imo it can be already accomplished with cpg1.5.x.

[Walkinman]

Hey André

Thanks again. I posted a thread about the keywords limit, thank you.

The album ID would be a useful plan, thanks for that idea. I was also thinking of just using a number system, and assigning numbers to each album I needed to do that with, but forgot each album already has a number assigned to it. I use the SEO-url plugin, so it makes it hard to see exactly what the album id is .. and for albums with a low number, like 2, I might need to try some either ID. We'll see.

Was this supposed to be a link?
"Basically as described here:"

That would be useful, to hide them.

I wondered if it was a lot of coding. I can appreciate that.

One thing I did see, just in testing the keywords method (and I'm sure it would apply to the request I had as well) is duplicate content. Doesn't google punish too much duplicate content? It would be nice if an image added to multiple albums, either thru assigned keywords or any other method, was able to be customized for that gallery .. OR .. have exactly the same url for both displayed pages.

So what I end up with is 2 different urls with the same content; is there any way around that at all?

I can start a new thread on that topic if it's not appropriate to ask here.

Thanks again for al your help.

Cheers

Carl

[Αndré]

It would be possible to display a picture in more than one album and let it open every time with the same URL. But: we'd have to remove the album parameter from the URL which causes Coppermine to loose the context of the picture. This means that Coppermine doesn't know from which album you opened that picture, so it also won't know which is the correct prev/next picture.

I personally don't care about Google's punishment. Imo the gallery should work for a person, not for a machine. But if you don't want to have duplicate content I don't understand your request how to create duplicate content

[Walkinman]

Hey André

Thanks for the follow up. I wondered if that would be the problem; is there no way to keep it so cpg can keep track f the album, but not display that in the url?

Yes, I understand some folks don't worry about google and seo, etc. It matters a lot to me, and probably to anyone who's using cpg as a stock photo type gallery; duplicate content isn't considered duplicate content if it's on a consistent url.

Each album can be optimized for a particular theme, such as glaciers, or landscapes, or Alaska, etc. it would be REALLY great if a file data could be tweaked for each particular album. For example, I've set up the site to read IPTC data, but i can overwrite that if needed. And I added some album numbers to the keywords as you suggested. So some images display in, for example, 3 albums. If I could write a custom title and desc for each place it appears would be very good. As is whatever desc and title I have will be the same each time the file is called, even if it's called to a separate album. I understand why, but that would really be ideal. Nothing's ever ideal, I suppose, esp for someone as hopeless as I am at this stuff.

Thank you.

Cheers

Carl

[Αndré]

If you want to have different meta data (title, description, etc.) the album keyword feature as-is won't work for you, as you already noticed.

You've now 3 possibilities I think:
1. Upload each image more than once to your gallery.
2. Keep the current album keyword feature, but somehow detect in which album you're currently and replace the meta data accordingly (this is probably the most inconvenient solution).
3. Create a new record in the database's pictures table, which links to the corresponding image on file system level (i.e. you copy almost the whole row). Then you'll have the same image twice in your database and can move the second one as you want and also change its meta data independently from the other one. But you have to be careful when deleting or renaming files, as the other rows in the database will become invalid. A small interface like "duplicate this file" or "copy this file to album x" might be handy. If we now would change the delete function to check if there are duplicate records and just remove the row in the database in that case, that would be the best option for you I think?

[Walkinman]

hey André

Thanks again for the followup, I appreciate it.

Yes, it sounds like #3 is the way to go. That would be a handy feature, I think.

Thanks again.

Cheers

Carl

[bilder]

Hi I just read this and it was very helpful, I have been wondering the same thing myself. I have quite a few photos and uploading them multiple times is a laborious task. I agree - number 3 sounds the best.